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Mustang Technical Discussion > Pre 1973 > Windsor build - best starting block? > Community Forums > Mustang Forum Australia - Mustang Tech

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Windsor build - best starting block? Reply to topic

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Shaunp
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too shiny for me


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boofhead
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smh00n wrote
Decided on AFR 165/58cc heads, performer RPM manifold, speed demon 650DP and a Crane Xtreme energy 282 cam. Supposedly this combo makes just over 400 which is fine


Excellent you have a plan. I know you did not ask for any views on the combination though..... I am a Boof so I cannot help myself.

1) AFR 165 are an excellent head for a mild 289/302. I have used them myself in one of my personal builds (and others). To illustrate SP's image of his 289 above has AFR 165's on it. They will work for you but if you do not have them as yet I would go for the 185 (assuming you want to stay AFR) because it will provide the top end flow you need plus room to move in the future.

2) Related is the Cam choice - I really like the high lift XE series of roller Cams and the XE282HR is one of them. The issue with the XE282HR is two fold. Firstly, it is an aggressive design on a SADI Cam (by default) and as a result the springs recommended by Comp are to soft. This is required because of the Cam material used. What happens is that the Cam falls over at 6000 RPM because the Valves cannot be controlled with the light springs. That Cam is a 7000 RPM+ Cam which is being held back limited by the springs. If you want to use it - go for it but order it using a steel billet core and spring it appropriately. You will also very likely need the pistons notched for the valves.

3) I love the fact you are build a high rev engine. This is what a 302 is built for and how to get HP from them. They love to rev. So much fun. Though, the 165 will not provide the air needed for that Cam in the higher rev range. So you have to deal with the Low vacuum at idle and loose top end because of springs and air low limits. It is all in the combination and your loosing at both ends.

4) You will also need the to consider you intake and exhaust sizing. Your going for a Cam that is designed to peek HP at 6500 RPM (even though it may not get there) so you need a single plane manifold. The Vic Jn will produce more HP over 5000 RPM period and go further up the higher you go. You will also need a decent exhaust system - 1 5/8 primaries may only just cut it. So keep that in mind as well.

5) Again viewing this from a high rev high HP perspective then I would run a 750. Big carbie always dyno better than smaller one especially when your talking 7000+ engine.

So;
Combination Option 1) Use the XE282HR
(a) Use AFR185 with springs to suite the Cam [greater seat pressure then recommended],
(b) Order the Cam using a steel billet core.
(c) Vic Jnr Intake,
(d) 750 Holley with a 1 inch spacer plus big exhaust system.
(e) 4000 staff with 4.30 rear

Combination Option 2) Use the AFR165
(a) Use XE274HR
(c) Air Gap
(d) 650 Holley with 1 inch spacer good exhaust system.
(e) 3000 stall with 3:80 -> 4:11 rear

I say build the big rev option just do not restrict it so you do not get the benefit your after with the high revs.

Just a Boofs opinion.


I will someday think of something clever to say.

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boofhead
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Cage I love the pictures of your engine. I will not forget that build. Shiny is perfect for your car and it sure packs a punch with 477 HP @ 6500 RPM.

Engine porn - Wooo Haaa.


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smh00n
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Thanks Boof. I will research those recommendations and see. Not in a hurry to build so lots of time to research.
Couple of things that need pointing out:
Car will be T5 manual; unsure if this has a 'rev limit'
Motor won't be steel; possibly forged pistons
It will be a cruiser/ weekend toy. I don't particularly want to be pulling 7,000 each change.
I want some torque as well.
400 Hp is ample for my needs. If I hit 450 giddy up but not an absolute.
I was looking at 3.25 gears; the gearbox has a lowish 1st (2.95) and I don't want to waste acceleration by running too low a diff. (FYI I have been playing with 4 cyl cars of late which is where I am quoting this from).

I based the 165 on the fact that they were recommended by a pretty good engine builder; they made 30hp less but more mid torque according to dyno tests on AFR website (https://www.airflowresearch.com/dyno.php look for the West tech 302 results) compared to the 185 and that I don't want to go nuts on the cost of the whole build.
If I keep the revs to where the standard 5.0 rotating stuff is safe then I'm happy with that.

Happy to receive reviews on this as I am a learner but also want to build a solid motor that will last.


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Shaunp
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You wont have 450 without a 3.4 stroke crank.


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smh00n
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And part 2..

2) - The AFR are assembled. Can they provide springs to suit? (too lazy to look on their site)
3) My preference is single plane but was thinking Torker II. Unsure how this stacks up

To reiterate, I don't particularly want a screamer and will be happy with a good combo of power and torque. Again, been many years since I played with these and an alloy small block making 750 was just a tossers dream.


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hybrid
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I'm with boof, and even more so now that you have said you don't want to have to rev it too hard.

Your original cam choice is more suited to higher revving and the 185 heads.
Your choice of 165 runners is a good one for a 302 that you don't want to rev too hard all the time.

I would take a step down on the cam choice. Yes, the idle will not be as lumpy, but lumpy generally means you have to rev it to make power.

Except in the case of the thumpr cams where they grind it to have a lumpy sounding idle, but don't have to rev it too hard.

I'm still not sure about the thumpr cams though. I'm of the thought that surely something is compromised to make this all happen.


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Shaunp
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Yes AFR can provide PAC springs, I would personally stick with an Airgap if you are not going rev its titts off. Airgap is a pretty good street manifold, you could put a spacer on it for some more plenum volume. It will be nicer in the mid range with an airgap and really most of the time you will rev it less then 5k. Conversly if you were to buy some 11r 190 trickflows the springs are probably good enough.


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boofhead
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Good feedback on your goals. That is important. The budget is also important as you have stated a small budget for this build. The cost is a like a logarithmic relative to HP attained - it costs a lot more to gain more power as you go up the scale. So with that in mind I have a combination suggestion for consideration;

Two goals;

1) Cost consideration
2) Good HP for the cost.
3) Good streetable engine that is a lot of fun.

The target HP is 340 - 380

Parts list (big picture):
1) TFS 170 heads 58cc (with the dual 600 thou max lift springs)
2) TFS -2 cc flat top forged pistons (+ rings etc etc)
3) Cam XE266HR (I would consider grinding it on a 110 lob center)
4) Quick fuel 650 DP
5) Air Gap intake with 1/2 inch spacer
6) 1 5/8 primary full length headers with 3 inch secondaries backed by 2.5 inch dual exhaust.
7) 3.80 : 1 rear gear.

A number of items are missing but not important for the big picture can go into any level of detail you would like.

This will be a killer street 302, very streetable move along well will good torque though the rev range and will be a lot of fun. This is one of my favourite combinations.


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hybrid
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Boof, that's 3 goals Wink2


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boofhead
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hybrid wrote
Boof, that's 3 goals Wink2


Indeed - decided not to edit. I added the last one at the end and forgot to update the sentence. Bad Boof.


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smh00n
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Shaunp wrote
You wont have 450 without a 3.4 stroke crank.


This is where life gets interesting. The AFR site has such a beast:

RPM Torque HP

2000 285 105
2500 296 139
3000 326 186
3500 342 228
4000 362 275
4500 374 320
5000 387 368
5500 398 417
6000 392 448
6100 391 455
6500 348 430

Dyno Test Criteria

Horsepower: 455HP
Engine: 302ci
Heads: 185cc AFR
Compression: 10.0:1
Carburetor: 650 cfm Speed Demon 84/87 Jets, Victor jnr.
Ignition: MSD Digital 7, 36° Timing
Cam: Comp Cams Extreme Energy Hyd. Roller 282 Cam, 565/574 232/240 @.050 with 1.6 Rockers, 112 Lobe Sep.
Exhaust: 1 3/4" Headers
Fuel: 92 Octane Pump Gas

Engine built and dyno tested by Westech Performance Group, Mira Loma, CA

I'm old enough to know that everything on the internet is not true but AFR have it there. What is does not say is what else was done but they have covered most of the big items.

This combo is exactly what I'd like - power all in at 6,100 and plenty of giddy up- and am happy to fund it.

Having said I am on a budget I am quite happy to drop ~$3,000 on the top of the motor and then spend what else needs to be done to match it, however without it turning into an animal that is $10,000. I have had the peaky narrow powerband cars and don't want another but then I am not scared of revving the ttits off it as long as it does not mean I have to refresh it every year.


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Shaunp
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Yeah that is a report that is also in How to build small blocks on a budget, I reckon its bull shit low octane fuel and 10:1 comp, I think you will be looking at 350-400 not 450. Real life tells me its unlikely, 450 -500 you'll want a 3.4 stroke ie 347. Typically a 347 with the 274 xe or similar cam will make mid 400's, 363 (347 with 4 1/8" bore) will make the 500 mark. A 400hp engine mustang is no slouch that's 300KW in a car the weights less then a new falcon or commodore.

It really depends how streetable you want it I geuss.


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hybrid
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I'd agree with Shaun - I think those figures are pretty optimistic.

Mine's a 347 with similar specs (slightly smaller cam 35-440-8) and I would be very surprised if it was even close to 450HP.

Maybe those 1 3/4" headers make a big difference Shrug


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boofhead
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I say go and build it. The specs mostly cover a few items I suggested in my first major post. Exhaust is important and yes 1 3/4 is better for an engine going for peek HP. I have no real issues with the spec other than
(a) I would use a 750 though in this case 650 is fine.
(b) 10.0:1 is hard to get on a 302 based engine. Really would be 9.6 or so ok but a true 10:1... hmmmm they would have to deck the block and deck heads to get the chambers smaller. You do need the compression with that Cam.

Any way, the parts selection is basically good so go for it. Keep us informed as I want to see the build and the results please.


I will someday think of something clever to say.

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