Although still a way off I thought it was time to start thinking about the power plant for Caroline.
My target is around 400hp from a 347. It will be a cruiser so just a nice sounding cam with a bit of lump but try and get as much power as early as possible in the rev range. At this stage the only part I have is the 302 block I took out of the car and stripped down. Other than being caked in ancient oil it looks like it should clean up ok after a hot tank. To go with this I was thinking of getting a scat rotating assembly from summit (not exactly sure which is the correct one for this application) and other then that wouldn't really know where to start, maybe some AFR heads but again not sure which ones.
With that being said and seeing as I have no experience with engines I am also open to buying a short block or even maybe more from summit although I do like the idea of getting all the parts separately as I think I will learn a lot more about engines, even if I don't do all the final assembly.
The only other requirement was that I still want the engine to look fairly stock. Doesn't have to be exact but just so at a quick glance most people will think its fairly standard, black block, gold rocker covers, so not overly blingy to keep with the sleeper theme.
Any and all advice and opinions will be taken on board.
It is a good choice to go 347 so the key is the select your heads and Cam for your purposes. This part can often be similar to a religious debate as most people have their own ideas or preferences. I do to though I try to be neutral or at least explain why I like one item as compared to another. In my book building it yourself is the go as you will learn so much and makes the journey a lot more fun. It also has potential to save you money while you know exactly what has been done. So onto my view.
1) SCAT stroker kit is an excellent choice. You only need the cast crank, forged I beam rods - and I suggest - forged pistons aim for street usage. The head choice will influence the relief valve chosen on the pistons or they can general come with both common patterns. You also need to think about the rear seal (one or two piece) so your block determines this also the balance weight. I suggest you stay with 28oz even if you engine may have been originally a 50oz weight. Hence assuming you have a later model roller block then it will be a one piece rear seal and I would stay with a 28oz balance. If it is an early block (such as a 68) then you will need a two piece seal and stay with the 28oz.
You need to make sure the pistons are correct for the head choice and the oversize pistons is correct for the engine (such as 30thou over for a rebore of the engine block - which is a good idea).
2) The heads - you have a big engine so they need to be able to breath. So now this is harder as you have stated you want it to look stock. That can limit though choices though I would simply paint my alloy heads to make it appear to the untrained eye to look stock - though you could get cast iron performance heads.
So cast Iron - not many to choose from and I was thinking RHS 215s would be my choice if staying with an iron head. Unfortunately they no longer do cast iron so my second (and now first Iron head choice) is the Dart Pro 1s. The set I linked to is a 200cc version with a good set of springs suited to a roller cam profile. Though you need to check the springs are suitable once you select a Cam.
If going alloy then you have many more choices. I really like the TSF heads in particular, for street engines, the Twisted Wedge design. They have two new models out with revised valve location and even better ports which makes them even more compelling. I am thinking the new 190 11R TW or even better the 205 11R TW heads.
Just about any decent brand after market head with enough port size will work well with your choice. There is the AFR 205 which would be a good choice. You can choose a smaller ported head though a larger port allows good performance with a smaller Cam which usually works out to be a good combination and allow future upgrades if you are looking for more power. Changing to a larger cam is far easier and less expensive than purchasing bigger heads.
Do make sure you have good sized primaries for your heads and good size for the rest of your exhaust.
3) Cam choice again is difficult. I prefer a steel billet cam than a SADI core cam. So based on your description I would look to getting a fairly mild cam such as the Anderson N41 [222/232 .512/.512 w/1.6 rocker 110 106] which has tight centres so good mid range power and punch and well suited to using a Carbi. You could go up further to a N61 for example.
Alternatively, Comp cams NX-274HR - this is similar to the XE274HR though it has wider centers, to reduce the overlap, and more exhaust lift. The extra focus on the exhaust is good for small block heads as the exhaust are the weak port, like standard 20 deg heads, such as the Pro 1 suggested above, would benefit with more exhaust port focused grind. You would need to request it as a Billet grind or use the SADI core. Carbi or tunable EFI would be fine.
There are many grinds which would suite such as a even the well priced TSF Stage 2 so I will stop here.
The rest is straight forward. We have had quite a few threads on engines and such so some reading can be done on this sight on the subject. Ask questions and everyone will try to help. I will be interested in the direction you choose to or thinking to go.
There's a thread somewhere - I think it's called "understanding engines".
For a cruiser I would not be going bigger than 200cc heads.
I'm running Dart Pro1 195cc on mine for the record, but that's not after doing lots of research - they just came up at a good price.
There's been dyno tests done showing 50HP gains just by bolting these on with no change. Most alloy heads should give similar results.
My cam is pretty mild, but it should end up somewhere near 400hp at the engine I would think, and with 195's and this cam I won't need to rev it's boobies off to get some power, but it would probably be the bottle neck at the moment for bigger power.
Bigger cams didn't gain enough to bother with IMO, but that was based on their setup.
The 347 should have plenty of torque and that's what you're going to feel most of on the street.
Rather than us telling you what to do, do some research (after advice here and elsewhere) and post up a combo you would like to go with.
IMO, you want to keep the bulk of your power between 2000 and 5000 RPM for a cruiser. I think my cams working range is 1800-5500.
If you're going to run a carb, the air gap manifolds seem to be the way to go.
Thanks for taking the time to write those replies boof and hybrid. I will start having a bit of a look for some parts and post up links to get opinions as well as having another look over the engine thread. Still a bit away from purchasing anything but if I have time up my sleeve I might get some good deals on some of the parts so if I get a list together I can just keep my eye on prices.
Boof I was thinking to go with alloy heads and just paint them black if I think they are to blingy for the look I want. I will go and do some research on those TSF heads.
Good call. Alloy heads provide many benefits. Once they are painted and you have accessories on they do not stand out unless someone knows what they are looking at. It is also a good idea to have a plan so you can spend the time and shop to get good prices on bits and pieces.
Cage has approached it this way and he has a nice collection of parts ready to go. He has shopped very well and his research had benefitted his knowledge enormously.
Keep asking questions - nothing is trivial - and I am sure someone will be able to answer it.
I agree just paint your alloy heads, you can even grind off any casting marks such as Trickflow AFR, Dart or what ever, prior to painting, like wise your intake also. At the end of the day as long as you buy quality items that are pretty well matched the out come with regards to the final result with be quite similar give or take, there is plenty of good gear out there now.
Out of interest most of the QLD Trans-am race cars are running Brodix heads, they are permitted to run a max inlet runner of 200cc, so these maybe worth a look, I know these are pushing an honest mid 500 + hp, they run either an RPM air gap or Victor Junior intake, as per the regs, they all run Double pumpers of course, but this gives some indication of what can be achieved, from a similar capacity engine with heads around this size. Not sure if the heads are custom made for Woody at Fataz engines but they do have Fataz logo milled in the front face, so they maybe special ones he gets made by Brodix I know he is an agent.
I won't say no budget cage because I don't want it to get out of hand but because I have a bit of time up my sleeve I am happy to spend the money to piece together a package that gives close to 400 hp at the engine.
I will stay with the carby, was thinking probably Holley, but if a good deal comes up on something else suitable happy to go another way. Probably go auto choke too unless there is a reason not to?
Boof I think it is a 71 block from the stampings on it so does that mean a 1 piece seal? And sounds easier to go 28oz
Also did a bit of reading about heads. The trick flow ones seem to have a good rep and perform well. Not sure if I would need to go to a 205 seeing as the engine will probably rarely see more than 5000 rpm but they are the same price as the 190 so as long as they didn't decrease lower end performance I suppose it gives you more upgrade options longer term if you go 205.
The dart pros don't seem to be as popular but a bit more reading seems to indicate they are good also, just don't have the marketing hype of some of the others.
The cost of the brodix heads may stretch the friendship with the boss a little too far although they would certainly be a good option
I will keep my eye on a few and see if any deals come up over the next while.
Good info guys. Keep spitting out any other opinions or advice.
You can machine the early blocks for a 1 piece seal if you desire, Are you going to build it yourself?
I am not sure how I am going to go about assembly yet Shaun. Ideally I would like to find someone to help me put it together but not sure if that is going to be possible. Don't have the confidence at this stage to go it alone so if I can't find someone to help for a bit of cash on the side I may just have to cough up the bikkies and get it built. Not really how I want to do it though, would like to learn more than that from the process.
This is going to be great to watch. I understand exactly how you feel. You want an engine that will have plenty of get up and go but will not rev it's tits off and a cam in it that will not be too lumpy and angry. I am with you mate. At the same time you would like to learn about how an engine goes together and be involved in the basic building of the engine if possible.
The first decision you need to make is to do with the bottom end in my opinion. After plenty of research I am sure you will decide on how you want this to look like. Once you do though you need to make the decision on whether you stroke your current block and use a stroker kit to suit you wishes, or buy a complete short block. This is your call mate and there are plenty of opinions on both options.
After that you have to decide on heads, cam, intake, distributor, pulley options, sump, carby, etc etc. A lot of decisions mate.
Any thoughts on how this engine may come together as far as parts go?
Last edited by cage on Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:47 am; edited 1 time in total
Having a look at heads some more and I do like the look of these from summit. The same as the ones boof recommended only these are street ported not comp ported and at only 190cc so not too large for good bottom end. Not sure how much effect the different porting has on power but I would think that any loss would be top end? Think they would breath more then enough for the range I want my power at and seem really reasonably priced.
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