Help needed: No spark & points shorting out ignition wires

[Edz66Vert]

I'm having trouble getting my motor running after fitting an MSD Atomic efi. It only handles fuel and the ICE ignition handles spark.

Part A:

The ICE ignition was running perfectly when the motor was running 12 months ago before I fitted the MSD.

Wiring: I have a brand new ICE ignition wiring harness connected externally to take this out of the equation. It has 2 wires running to the coil, 3 wires on a plug to connect the distributor and an earth to the engine block. I also have a second brand new ignition box to test with. I have a direct wire feed from the battery to take that out of the equation, pink wire long gone.

When I kick it over, I get spark once (timing light and external spark plug). She fires and then shuts down after about 2 or 3 seconds. Then when I crank it again I get nothing. I then wait 5 minutes and it repeats this.

I've left the ignition on and checked the temp of the hall effect switch in the dissy and it's 21 deg max.

I've connected a Bosch coil I had (at Michael from ICE's recommendation), same thing happens.

Part B:

Now I've put a Motorcraft Points dizzy in to test if it's the ICE playing up and I'm having trouble with that.

I have the Bosch coil wired to the positive and negative wires coming off the points.

My problem is, when I put positive to the positive terminal on the coil with the points closed I get a dead short. The wire going into the dissy starts to smoke and it even trips a 30amp breaker?

I've tested the points out of the dissy and they don't short internally?

I'm pulling my hair out!

[Edz66Vert]

Update:

Checked the coils I have and they are non-resistor type.

I've given up on the points dizzy.

Talked to Michael when I first had problems and he suggested I try the Bosch coil I had. I wanted to make sure it wouldn't damage the ICE ignition computer.

The ICE is very easy to wire, two wires labelled for the coil, one 3 pin plug for the distributor and an earth wire that must go to the engine. There are 2 other wires on mine for tacho and two-step rev limiting.

I initially thought it might be the harness I had wired in so now all my testing is with a brand new, spare harness I have and no change.
I'm connecting the coil/ICE Ignition power feed to a direct feed from the battery.

I've pulled the dizzy and connected it to a sparkplug that was sitting out and earthed.
If I connect it to the coil and spin the dizzy, I get a continuous series of fat sparks (the coil/box uses 7 amps).

If I just connect the plug to a lead from the dizzy, I get a single spark every rotation.
Now the dizzy is in, I still get the single spark for each rotation during cranking.

Now that I've put it all back, when I kick it in the guts, it fires up once each time and then shuts off straight off. I can hear the fuel pump kick in and shot off when the computer turns it off.

At least now I get spark all the time.

I checked the diagnostics on the MSD hand controller and it says all ok?

[hybrid]

Does the MSD let you log?
At least your spark is good now so you can concentrate just on the EFI.

First guess would be that the EFI is losing it's input signal. Where does it get it's signal from?

[Edz66Vert]

The MSD just has a hand-controller Hybrid, it's only handling fuel. The diagnostics on that show no errors and when I turn the ignition on, everything shows it's working?

Michael from ICE wants me to rip the EFI off and put a carby on since it was previously working with the carby. But I'm hesitant to do that as I even have a new tank with a Holley EFI pump in it.

I keep losing the spark. It works when I run the dissy out of the engine all wired up. But when I fit it to the engine, most times I have no spark? I have it wired with the brand new ICE harness and when a mate and I kicked it in the guts, I can see the injectors squirt some fuel but I have no spark again? Sometimes it fires once, then nothing until I rest it for 5 minutes. Checked the temp of the pickup in the dissy and it's not getting hot?

I have a car show to go to next Thursday and this is killing me as I really wanted to drive it!

[Dwayne]

Just a long shot, but does the efi think it's controlling Ignition as well?

[hybrid]

The MSD just has a hand-controller Hybrid, it's only handling fuel. The diagnostics on that show no errors and when I turn the ignition on, everything shows it's working?

But the MSD needs a signal to know when to inject the fuel. Generally your ECU will either have its own crank signal, or it will use a signal from the ignition to know when inject the fuel. I don't really like fuel only controllers because in my opinion, it's the more flexible ignition control that is the biggest benefit.

But if you're losing spark, then it doesn't matter whether you have fuel or not.
If you were in Sydney I'd come over and give you a hand, but Canberra is a bit far for a quick visit.

[Edz66Vert]

The MSD just has a hand-controller Hybrid, it's only handling fuel. The diagnostics on that show no errors and when I turn the ignition on, everything shows it's working?

But the MSD needs a signal to know when to inject the fuel. Generally your ECU will either have its own crank signal, or it will use a signal from the ignition to know when inject the fuel. I don't really like fuel only controllers because in my opinion, it's the more flexible ignition control that is the biggest benefit.

But if you're losing spark, then it doesn't matter whether you have fuel or not.
If you were in Sydney I'd come over and give you a hand, but Canberra is a bit far for a quick visit.

You're right Hybrid, msd needs a tach signal which it was getting from the ICE.

The old Ice harness is connected but I get no spark from it, when I connect the new harness I have, it sparks but I forgot to send the tach feed to the MSD throttle body. Nuts was over checking it out and mentioned you'd posted about how does the msd know when the engine gets spark.

I'll connect the ICE tach signal for the new harness after lunch and see if that fixes it.

[Edz66Vert]

The MSD just has a hand-controller Hybrid, it's only handling fuel. The diagnostics on that show no errors and when I turn the ignition on, everything shows it's working?

But the MSD needs a signal to know when to inject the fuel. Generally your ECU will either have its own crank signal, or it will use a signal from the ignition to know when inject the fuel. I don't really like fuel only controllers because in my opinion, it's the more flexible ignition control that is the biggest benefit.

But if you're losing spark, then it doesn't matter whether you have fuel or not.
If you were in Sydney I'd come over and give you a hand, but Canberra is a bit far for a quick visit.

You're right Hybrid, msd needs a tach signal which it was getting from the ICE.

The old Ice harness is connected but I get no spark from it, when I connect the new harness I have, it sparks but I forgot to send the tach feed to the MSD throttle body. Nuts was over checking it out and mentioned you'd posted about how does the msd know when the engine gets spark.

I'll connect the ICE tach signal for the new harness after lunch and see if that fixes it.

[Edz66Vert]

Finally, after 3 months of stuffing around, it sort of runs. The MSD was missing the tacho signal from the ICE but also the harness I wired in originally has issues because the earth on the coil killed the spark. It wouldn't run with the new harness with the old ICE earth coil wire attached. With that disconnected, it sparks nicely, finally. Michaels answer from ICE was to rip off the fuel injection and put a carby back on since it was running previously with a carby.

Now I have to reset the timing. It sort of runs but runs rough and then dies. The 3rd time I started it, it backfired and caught fire so I had to run and throw a rag on the throttle body. I'll try and time it tomorrow.

Thanks all for help. I'll let you know when I get to drive it, finally.

[hybrid]

Glad to hear you've made progress. Definitely sounds like a timing issue. I'm assuming your MSD is self learning, so once you get the ignition right and it starts running "properly", your fueling should improve over time.

Don't listen to those "just put a carby back on" guys, though it can be a good temporary troubleshooting step to rule out certain areas.

[Edz66Vert]

Ok, so the ICE cool is crook. It fires once, shuts off and then nothing for 5 minutes. Put a Bosch electronic ignition coil in and it starts and runs for about 2 or 3 seconds and shuts off each time?

I bypassed the fuel pump so the msd is not controlling it but same thing, 2 to 3 seconds and shuts off.

Now I'm back to having starting issues, starter just clicks. It does that about every 5 or 6 cranks but now it's just clicking. I'll put the old starter in that I replaced for the very same problem and see if that works? I ran a direct wire to the starter solenoid but same problem. Cranked the motor by hand to see if it was stuck but that didn't help. It's caught me out a couple of times like this before, not nice to not be able to start again when your sitting at a service station.

Maybe I should just let it burn next time it backfires and buy a new Mustang convertible, but then I'd be bored in 3 months with nothing to do on it except polish it.

[Edz66Vert]

Have to order a new starter motor but it will have to wait until I get back from holidays.

Not sure why the msd fires up and cuts off, the diagnostics screen doesn't show any problems? I have the fuel pump and coil bypassed to get power as soon as the ignition is on.

I'll ask the mate I got it off second hand 'working'? and ask if it was off a working car or did he just buy it loose in a box?

[hybrid]

I'm not sure the MSD is the issue here.
I'm guessing that your ignition is still cutting out and causing the MSD to lose its signal.

Can you explain to me the whole setup?
Is it an ICE distributor?

It almost sounds like the ignition module (not the coil) is overheating and cutting out or something along those lines.
Maybe put a timing light on the coil and see whether it's losing spark when it dies.

If it's the MSD that is the problem, you'll still be seeing spark while the engine dies. If it's the ignition, the timing light will stop flashing straight away.

[Edz66Vert]

Thanks Hybrid.

I think it may be the settings in the Sniper MSD because I set the cam to performance and when I was on the forum the Holley guy commented that you should try standard cam as higher cam settings can make it hard to start.

It's a complete 7amp 2-step ICE ignition with a 7062MV 2 step with ICE 7 amp coil and vacuum advance-less ICE distributor. I also have a 7060MV 7 amp One step I bought off a mate and new harness.

When I fitted the Bosch Electronic coil it fires beautifully. I have a timing light connected all the time and I also connected a plug directly to the coil, that's how I found out the ICE coil is crook. It fired once and then shut off where the Bosch fires continuously.

I connected the new harness as I think there's a problem in the wiring of the old harness.

Once I connected the tacho wire from the ICE to the MSD, it fired the ignition properly. However, it would try to run and cut off.

I reset the Sniper to a standard cam, upped the Power Valve Enrich to 25% (was on 19%). Pump Squirt was already on 25% which is the recommendation for both.

Then the starter died, so now waiting until the 16th when I get back to fit a new starter and try again.

I noticed ICE has a different setup for the sniper so I'll ask Michael about it when I talk to him about sending the coil back.

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[hybrid]

If you can, watch the sniper screen the whole time. See if the RPM goes to zero immediately. If it does, it's losing tach signal. If it kind of fumbles it's way to death, then it's more likely tuning.